Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Well, I took physical delivery of a certain wad of FRNs, which now reside alongside constitutional money in the stash.

The month is almost over, and Virginia bars one from buying more than one gun per month to begin with, so I decided that as the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban may be renewed, I should make November's purchase a rifle like a Saiga, AK, AR15, or Romanian PSL (Dragonuv).

Thus, what I am thinking of doing is going to the shooting club, possibly trying some rifles if possible, and asking advice there.

Thus, questions:
Are AR15s and PSLs advisable for one who will not be that experienced?
Given the circumstances, would it be wise to make haste, or try and fine-tune the arrangement, increasing the odds of success?
If one cannot drive due to an optical problem (depth perception), do I even have any business purchasing?

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Aren't you in NY? I'd go with Rev's recommendation that the first purchase ought to be a concealable handgun in case TSHTF. Go with a Glock 19 in 9mm. Also, try to buy a gun from an owner - no paperwork trail... then there is NO limit on how many you can buy! :D

Start here to find owner-sellers in your area: www.thehighroad.org.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Thank goodness I am not in New York.

There is, however, a small matter which may be pertinent (looked on the NRA page)
In addition, Masonic advised me in another thread to get a ,45 handgun. Is ,45 ammo ubiquitous and inexpensive to warrant this, as I have read that may be the greater part of the expense overall.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I prefer AR's but opinions here will vary. What is the best car?

With no depth perception, I don't recommend that you try to land any aircraft but you'll be OK shooting a rifle, or almost anything except wing shooting. Really, you probably would benefit from a visit to a range to see the hardware in action.

Oh yeah, SLV has the ticket on the purchase, from an individual.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

.45's are fine guns. You will be able to shoot a 9mm faster on target due to the lower recoil. AND the ammunition is a lot less and PERHAPS more readily available. Also, you will find 9mm handguns which hold more rounds than the .45.

Don't worry about the shotgun w/12+ drum mag. If you want a good defensive shotgun get the Saiga 12 w/10 round stick mag.

PS - I think I remember ballistic gel results showing that the 9mm excelled in some circumstances over any other caliber. I think there was a "Myth Busters" show on this...

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

SHOTGUN, given your 'vision empaired' issue.

Load up on all sorts of ammo. Double ought, #4, #7 (both are considered 'bird shot') and some slugs.

All the other weapons that you list are excellent. The Romak 3 (Romanian Dragunov PSL) is an excellent long range weapon (out to 1000 yards). Ammo is lower cost than most of the other calibers.

BUT, you could also consider a bolt action Mosin Nagant for around $100 or so. http://www.classicarms.us/htm/firearms.htm Down near the bottom. Hand picked brings you 'up' to $99.95. Spend $350 for one set up as a 'sniper' rifle.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I agree this would be wise; I'm already in touch with someone in the same town who is a member of the local shooting range.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

http://www.wesh.com/news/14437963/detail.html

WESH.com


Blind Man Shoots Home Intruder In Neck


POSTED: 10:24 am EDT October 27, 2007
UPDATED: 2:01 pm EDT October 27, 2007


<SCRIPT src="/js/13260191/script.js" type=text/javascript></SCRIPT><LINK href="/css/13260803/style.css" type=text/css rel=stylesheet><!--startindex-->GAINESVILLE, Fla. -- A Gainesville man's lack of sight didn't stop him from defending his home from an intruder.
According to police, Cevaughn Curtis Jr., 28, broke into Arthur Williams' house in Gainesville at around 3 a.m.
Curtis, police said, knocked on the door, asked to be let inside but Williams refused. Curtis then tried to force his way into the home.
The 75-year-old retired taxi dispatcher, who's been legally blind for the past 61 years, opened fire on the would-be-thief who kicked down his door, police said.
Police said Williams shot Curtis, who tried to flee but collapsed on the front porch, inthe left side of the neck. He was taken to a hospital in stable condition.
Police said Curtis was charged with burglary of an occupied residence and battery on a person over the age of 65.
Officials are praising Williams for protecting himself.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

[quote]

good idea


if the dumb shits that make up most of the army now can figure em out you can too

hell no. never rush with guns. dealers are always rushing people into some sucker thing.
gee thats a good question.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I am not sure how your visual impairment would affect your ability to shoot a firearm accurately...do you have much experience with firearms?

By all means get qualified instruction in the types, operation, and proper use of different types of firearms through an NRA basic firearms course.

Do you have any gun-owner friends? Most guys I know are more than happy to let me shoot their favorite firearm.

Rent guns at your local range...find out which ones work best for YOU.

Once you get some experience, you will be more capable of making your own INFORMED decision...and NOT carried away by some of our opinions.

We can offer some suggestions on what to buy based on our experiences...

How much do you want to spend? What type do you like? How many firearms...rifle, pistol, shotgun?

For the record I am an NRA Instructor...disciplines are basic pistol, home defense, home safety, range safety.

Oh and did I fail to mention?...a Glock armorer and BIG GLOCK FAN :applause_

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Be sure to check whether it's not actually a one per 30-day period, rather than one per calendar month. It'd make the difference between trying to get one in October and one as soon as November starts, or one now and one 30 days from now.

And be glad that at least you don't live in California. :no_ma:

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I have $1'800 out of which I am also hoping to buy a Berkey water filter with the good filters, and possibly some silver to trade in for gold once the ratio gets back in line. One rifle and one handgun seems reasonable; I can always add more later.

As for the 30-day issue, the language says "one handgun a month", so I'll have to find the language of the relevant bill itself.

Still though; I'm not going to make a move until I go to the range and find out how things work out.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Going with a handgun as a first purchase is not a bad idea. I think that in these times with the possibility of an assault weapon ban, if you have limited money, go for the rifle first. At least you will be assured of obtaining one. Whichever you go for first, do take the advice of trying out various guns to see which suits you best.

As to which one, you must decide what you are going to use it for. As I've said in previous posts, the AK is a one note Johnny that has reliability going for it, but little else for a civilian shooter. For a new shooter, the AR is by far the superior rifle of the two. Easier to shoot, long range accuracy, similar stopping ability (especially at 200 meters or more due to the rifles inherently superior accuracy), one of the, if not THE most versatile rifles you can get. Reliability issues were resolved long ago and with the normal maintenance any shooter should give his rifle, not something to concern yourself with. If you doubt this there are videos (don't have a link right now but you may locate them on YouTube) showing the AR being subjected to all manner of abuse and still firing.

If you decide on a handgun first, stick with a .45, Glock or Colt, you can't go wrong. The 9mm is, all things considered the easier of the two calibers to shoot, but has an inferior record of stopping an assailant. And this is the important point. Will the weapon you choose be able to stop someone. While the specs, gelatin tests, etc. seem to indicate that the 9mm is comparable to the .45, in the real world, the .45 has the clear record of being able to put someone down with the first shot. It's for this reason that US Special Forces groups are returning to the .45 as the pistol caliber of choice.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Copy that SLV.

If you have problems with depth perception you'll probably want to get an optical sight like some kind of red dot. They don't usually offer an magnification, what they do is place an aiming point on the same focal plane as the target, it's a lot faster and easier for anybody than focussing on the front sight and keeping the target in view in the background. The Russian optics offer a lot of bang for the buck in a durable, effective sight. They are available in a Weaver rail configuration but if you go with an AK-derived rifle that has the left side rail you can buy them with an integral mounting rail designed to hold its zero even when removed from the rifle.

Everybody has a right to defend themselves

The .45acp is not a magnum class round. Like any other service round it can kill a badguy with a well placed shot, a poorly placed shot is just a wound. It is very expensive, heavier than many rifle rounds in bulk and it sure is bulky. You can buy premium 9x19mm loads for the price of "cheap" fmj .45 loads.

But yeah, start with a concealable handgun first.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I may have already asked this before, but what's the difference between .45 auto and .45 GAP and .45 Auto? In addition, what would be a reasonable price for a Colt and a Glock .45?

Thanks for the replies thus far; I'd be in permanent 'information overload' without some context :smile:

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

My two cents:

I agree with the others that a concealable handgun should be your first priority. I love .45's but I also agree that 9mm is more practical. The ammo is cheaper and more plentiful, they have a greater magazine capacity and unless you are a very seasoned marksman, follow up shots are faster and more accurate.

As far as the Saiga, AR, Ak or PSL goes, I'd go with an AK. The Saigas are nice, but mag interchangability would make me lean more towards a standard AK. ARs are fine weapons, as long as the user is well trained in the maintenance and upkeep. Again, I'd lean towards a standard AK. As for the PSL, I have a NDM-86 (Dragunov) and its definitely my favorite rifle. Very fun to shoot. Unless you live in the Ozarks or Rockies though, its probably not going to be the most practical choice if the SHTF. They're somewhat heavy, awkward and long, which makes it a poor choice for close combat. Again, just my two pennies, but I'd go after the standard AK.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I hope you don't live in the dorms. You may find yourself receiving a visit from the ATF, FBI, and local fuzz if you bring guns into campus and your survival cache would be seized, you would be kicked out of school, and you would be SOL :shocked_ma:

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

If anyone doubts the reliability of a AR15...

Full auto AR15 1100 round torture test.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I'm around AR's a lot and have been for decades. The failures to fire that I've seen in the past 10 years can be counted on the fingers of one hand with a lot of fingers left over and it was ammo problems not gun.

The AR is a much finer weapon, lighter and capable of orders of magnitude more accuracy. There are uppers in various very interesting and potent calibers that can be installed in 30 seconds. If you have an IQ of better than 65, you can maintain it to the point where it will not jam.

If you are interested, you can go on the net and find the retail price of an AR compared to an AK in various hell-hole third world countries and thereby get their take on the various merits of the weapons.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I'm not EVEN going to touch all the AR remarks.

I will say that ANY AK can handle being run over by a heavy truck (like that white van in the background of the AR video), picked up and it will still work.

Try that with an AR and you will find yourself with a non functional weapon PDQ. I love the video where the guy talks about how the weapon can be dropped in dirt, sand and water, but I missed where he dropped it into water, THEN dropped it into dirt & sand and THEN picked it up and it still worked without having to clear it. SEVERELY. He did drop it into the water several times, but never dropped it into the dirt after that, but maybe I missed it.

.45 ACP can't be found in high capacity pistols? Uh, no one here heard of Para Ordinance, which has been making them for quite some time.

How about 14+1 (that's 15 rounds of heart stopping .45 ACP)...

http://www.paraord.com/product/product.html?id=67

Or you can 'drop down' to .40 and get 16+1 (17 rounds) for this same design.

http://www.paraord.com/pages/highcapmags.html#pxtHiCap

And YEAH they do make a 9mm that is 18+1 (19 rounds) for this same design.

Even the Glock 21 (.45 ACP) is 13 rounds. http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols_45.htm

If you just have to have a battle rifle, the AK has been proven for a lot longer (60 yrs) than the AR (45 yrs). The AK has been made all over the world and has functioned in every climate. The AR is a good rifle, but it just won't handle the same abuse as an AK.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

AK/AR... Ford/Chevy... Blondes/Brunettes... Some arguments will never end.
:rolleyes_m:

PS - The correct answer is AK.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I'm an AK man, and I would say AK, except...

...you mentioned eyesight. My DP is pretty damn weak, but I shot expert twice in USAF FWIW. Only you know how bad it is but if it's bad, then perhaps a shotgun would be in order, as stated above.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I wouldn't want to get hit by a .223. That being said...I ordered an FAL.

AR (light, accurate)
AK, FAL (powerful, reliable)

I have a Stag AR and it has never given me any trouble whatsoever.

If you have little experience with handguns get the Glock 19. There is virtually no recoil...you can hold it on target without any trouble.

And even blind people use firearms to defend themselves...you can find plenty of cases with a search.

But if you got the big bucks why limit yourself. Collect 'em all. If the AWB is reintroduced you can easily sell what you don't like for a profit.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/4...s007en0.th.jpg

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Glock 21 or 21SF (.45 ACP) runs about $529-579 new, used maybe $450
Glock 39 (.45 GAP) runs about $500 new
Springfield makes a decent 1911 basic model (.45 ACP)about $450-500 range
Colts are what now...~$750-850 range new?

The GAP is a fine, accurate cartridge, but has only been manufactured for a few years and you may have supply problems...the 45 ACP has been around waaaaaayy longer ~100 years...much more popular and available.

45 GAP vs 45 ACP:

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

What's the price on the PSL your looking at? I think it's a great rifle. I have made my PSL a bit more user friendly.

-1

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I ditto the Glock 19...probably the most popular model Glock and currently used by the NYPD (and others) with Speer 124 +P Gold Dot ammo.

And again I recommend the Saiga (AK) for anyone on a budget (or not)...you decide the caliber...my recommendation would be .223...because the rifle with a 1-9 inch twist rate barrel shoots most ALL current manufacture and widely available .223 or 5.56 Nato...either U.S. manufacture brass cased ammo (more expensive) or Wolf steel case (less expensive)..

Surefire is in the process of making high capacity polymer mags for ALL Saiga calibers...we'll have to wait and see on that one.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I have an apartment; f&ck the nanny-cop colleges :D I checked the lease; nothing precluding me from firearm ownership.

From what I read, though, the 9mm won't take a guy down in one shot, but a 45 can. Does the decrease in power justify the ammo cost and availability differential?

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

When in doubt, look at the weapons insurgents use. They've really kicked U.S. ass, so i'd say that their guns + ideology will go a long way.

(AK for me).

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Classic Arms has a pretty good deal on a PSLs. I've never done business with them myself, but the guys on the combloc sniper forum on Gunsnet seem to like theirs.

http://www.classicarms.us/

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

.22LR can drop someone with one shot (I've heard it is actually the preferred assassins caliber). It is all about aiming, and the 9mm is easier to keep on target with multiple quick shots. Get Federal's "Hydra-Shok" ammunition for indoors, and Federal's "Tactical Bonded" for outdoors/in the car.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9...02largexo9.gif

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/1...icom950fb6.jpg

Just get a scope for the M1A and you should have medium to long range covered fine, and for close range? Can't beat the calico's firepower very easily.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Don't rule out a Ruger Mini 14 or Mini 30
http://www.sportwaffen-schneider.de/...ugerMini30.jpg
Lot's of parts and accessories available for these, very reliable and accurate.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Don't really know enough about all of these things to make a call one way or another, but it has given me something to chew on.

Right now, though, I'm inclined to go with the Glock 9mm and some variety of AK or Saiga that takes 7,62x39 ammo. Just to make sure, he 7,62x39 is relatively ubiquitous and inexpensive?

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

AK ammo was cheap for years. Now I think it is like 200 bucks for a 1000 rounds?

I love shooting AKs

I like shooting the 9mm a lot but there is nothing like a 45.

If I could not see all that good I would get a shotgun.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Next time your looking at pistols take a good hard look at the Sigs.

-1

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

How much do you value your life Skirnir? That's the real question.

A pistol is a last ditch weapon. If you have a choice, always use a rifle (or shotgun) instead. If you are forced to use a handgun though, then you want the most powerful one that you can shoot well. Between the 9mm and .45, there is simply no comparison. As I've said before the .45 has the proven track record of stopping a person with the first shot and the 9mm does not. It's that simple. If you can shoot both equally well, go for the .45. What ammunition to use? Ball ammunition for penetration, or Federal Hydra-Shok are good all around choices.

Another consideration is the legal ramifications when you shoot someone (I'm talking normal times here, not a TSHTF situation). If you ever have to shoot someone in self defense, you must justify each round you fire. It's a whole lot easier, all things considered, to justify shooting a burglar for instance once with a .45 to drop him, than it is to shoot the same burglar 3 or 4 times with a 9mm in order to stop him. Something for you to chew on a little.

Getting back to the AR/AK debate.

Let's all keep in mind that with Skirnir, we are talking about a young man who has limited funds with which to purchase a rifle and/or pistol. I presume he wants to get the most bang (pun intended) for the buck in his purchase. He is not a soldier. I presume he's looking for these weapons for use in a self defense mode and not assaulting enemy troops. Against this backdrop, which of the two weapons will serve him best?

People who advocate the AK, continually harp on the AK's legendary reliability as the selling point but don't take into consideration the numerous flaws the weapon has, especially for someone like Skirnir. While I agree that you can run over an AK with a truck and it will usually continue to function, what's the point? How many times is that likely to happen in the real world? Yes, you can take the AK, dump it water and mud, cycle the action a few times, and have it continue to function, but what's the point? How likely is that to happen in the real world? Basically, this type of reliability is of esoteric interest only.

Other than reliability in conditions a person is not likely to face, what other selling points does the AK possess? Frankly, not many. Once you look at the inferior ergonomics, the poor accuracy especially at longer ranges (150 meters +) and the fact that there's really not much you can do to improve it, a person armed with this weapon is at a distinct disadvantage against an opponent armed with an AR. Bear in mind, a person with an AR or a whole host of other rifles can sit outside the effective range of a person armed with an AK and take him down. The person armed with the AK will be up sh*ts creek. Not a minor point.

On the other hand as I've said before, the AR gives Skirnir the most bang for the buck. It's a platform that is time proven, reliable, fires a cartridge that is powerful enough to engage a target at any reasonable range (0-400 meters) and gives up nothing in comparison to the AK's 7.62x39mm cartridge especially when accuracy is taken into consideration, and can easily be configured to suit whatever purpose Skirnir wishes to use it for. You can have anything from a .22 plinker/small game getter, to a light machinegun with the proper receiver/stock combinations.

Try that with an AK.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Any reasonable gun can take someone down in one shot if you hit a vital enough area, even a .22LR, but the round lacks penetration on a target, limiting the effective areas you can hit.

If you wing someone with a .45 they are not going down. This whole fallacy and mystique about .45 being a knock-down caliber has been proved over and over here and in other forums to be just talk. Of course .45 pistol manufacturers probably love to perpetuate such talk. Probably only a shotgun hitting critical centre-mass will drop an assailant fast.

In fact, it could be argued a .357 magnum round is better than most other pistol calibers as it delivers more energy and penetration on target than most other calibers, and is only bested by something like a .357SIG fired from a pistol.

The .40 calibre is quite popular with LEOs, a higher calibre than 9mm, common ammo, yet doesn't have the kick of the .45 projectile, hence still controllable for most people, for reasonably rapid fire, with the added benefit of more capacity than a .45. Law enforcement and military know the benefit of higher capacities and being able to throw more lead between reloads, it makes up for poor marksmanship quite well.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

You should read Che Guevarra, who kicked plenty of ass back in his day.

He said the insurgent must use the standard issue weapon of the occupying forces.

The reasons are obvious-- ammo compatibiltiy and supply, and ease of resupply of parts.

Hence, it makes good sense for the Iraqui insurgents to have ak47s since the Iraqui army does (or did) and their police forces do too. In the USA if you are under "occupation" then you look at the occupier. Does he wield an ak? No.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Best Choices for Self-Defense Ammunition

The caliber and actual ammunition used are very important. Winchester Rangers, Gold Dot Speers, Corbon DPX are all good choices. What you're looking for is penetration and bullet expansion. The impact a target feels from getting shot is the same your hands will feel from the recoil of the gunshot.

I personally started out with a 9mm (Springfield Armory XD-9 sub-compact) so with its 3" barrel, I use a +P type for my carry load which has ballistics similar to a .357 SIG. I recently picked up a .45acp that I'll be experimenting with.

You can't go wrong with a Glock or a Sig or an XD or an HK. All are very top notch pistols. I went with the XD because of its reliability, point 'n shoot ergonomics and features (grip safety, striker and chamber indicators).

Just make sure you have the right grip
http://www.oregonshooting.com/vids/spgrip1.wmvhttp://www.oregonshooting.com/vids/grip2.wmv

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

If you just fell into some money, and can only have 1 gun per month, why the hell would you get an AK? :confused_ma: :confused_ma: The day theres a shortage of AK's....

Don't get me wrong, they're great, I love them, but I can't afford to drop a decent amount of cash on an National Match M1A, otherwise I would have a long time ago. AK ammo is getting too damn expensive. .308 isn't hard to find, and theres decent foreign mil surp floating around once in a while. If you get a National Match though I'd try to stick with good high quality factory ammo for a little while though, and only use surplus if SHTF bigtime. Also, you're only one guy, so you shouldn't be going Rambo with an AK, you should throw a nice bushnell scope on that M1A and pick and choose your battles from 700 yards away

As for glock, I don't blame ya, I'm trading one of my rifles for a glock as soon as I move out to VT next week. I'd rather have a calico though, if I'm walking around with an M14 at least :tongue_ma: For concealed carry though, glock 19 will do fine.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

About 20 cents a round is right. American made ammo in this caliber can be bought at such places as Sports Authority and Wal-Mart and costs around 40 cents a round. 20 cents a round will buy you Wolf Military Classic HP which is loaded with the 8m3, the most vorpal bullet design in this caliber.

The cheapest 5.56x49 is around 22 cents a round, steel cased and will likely break the extractor on an AR-15 if you shoot enough of it. Because it is also steel jacketed it won't fragment, robbing the round of its greatest wounding potential. Be prepared to shell out 30 to 40 cents a round for brass cased 5.56 that will perform well.

.308 will cost you 30 cents a round for the cheapest imported stuff, fourty to sixty cents a round for American made.

There's a word for that. It's called hogwash. .45acp has poor penetration on barriers or personal armor regardless of the bullet type you use. In fact both .45 and .40 will bounce off steel barriers that 9x19 or 7.62x25 can zip through. Against living targets a miss with a .45 is still a miss, a shot that doesn't hit the vitals won't kill. A shot to the vitals with any of the service calibers will kill.

Uh, reliability is the single most important factor in a defensive or combat firearm. Rounds have to be able to hit the target, sure, but if it won't go bang every time under all conditions without babying it isn't a useful weapon.

Anyway the AK does have many other selling points.

* Its action is made up of a few large parts that are difficult to lose or break. AR-15 has many small parts, many of which are easily lost or broken.

* AK magazines are as indestructible as the rifle and cheap. AR-15 mags are made of easily dammaged thing aluminum unless you shell out big bucks for the high reliability steel mags that still aren't as reliable or strong as AK mags. Without a mag an autoloader is a single shooter.

* AK magazines rock into place and lockup is positive, this is much stronger than the AR-15 magwell design. There's a reason why the first action of SPORTS is to slap the bottom of your AR-15 mag to make sure it's seated correctly.

* An AK with siderail can take advantage of the though, fast military grade Kobra and PKA-S optical sights and they cost under $250.

* The AK by design can suffer much more sustained fire than the AR-15 without fear of cooking off rounds

* The AK actually has great ergonomics if you know how to run an AK and all its controls can be tuned to your liking with aftermarket parts.

* AK's do not have gas rings that need to be manually staggered to ensure reliability... a part that is freespinning in the AR design. Somebody was high when they designed this feature in! This is a perfect example of people letting their love for a coolguy gun get in the way of common sense. Read this,

http://www.ar15.com/content/products...ries/gasRings/

A critical component of the AR-15 does not work correctly as designed, but the fix for it is a "solution without a problem." It's amazing the lengths of self delusion people who love a broken platform will go to in order to avoid facing reality.

I guess this is a "reliability issue" so it doesn't count?

* A Vepr or milled reciever AK can deliver 2moa accuracy with good ammo

* The AK can be fitted with a folding stock. The AR-15 cannot because its recoil spring is located in the stock.

* The AK is vastly superior to the AR-15 in hand to hand combat when wielded by somebody who knows what they are doing.

* The AK does not squirt a jet of hot gasses into your shooting eye at random intervals

Eeek! Also hogwash. The 5.56x45 has much poorer performance against commonly encountered intermediate barriers. The 7.62x39 can shoot through brick and concrete block walls, the 5.56x45 cannot. The 7.62x39 can fire through barriers, remain on course and still carry enough mass and energy to be dangerous to the badguy on the other side. The 5.56x45 gets deflected off course and often dumps energy or breaks up. With M855 or M193 the effective range of an AR-15 with 20 inch barrel maxes out at 200 yards. The effective range of one of the popular short 16 inch barrel configurations is less than half that. It's not because it isn't accurate, it's plenty accurate, it's just that if the bullet doesn't frag it's just a .22. The 7.62x39 doesn't rely on velocity to do its dammage the way the 5.56x45 does.

Most people just can't make the critical hit that 400 yards to be effective, not against a target that is moving and shooting back. Even then there are few cases where you have visibility out more than one or two hundred yards unless you don't live in the woods or city. If you live in an open area then get a real fullhouse .30cal rifle. With decent ammo a Vepr or milled AK can deliver 2moa. With typical ammo just about any AK can deliver four moa. It is neat that AR's can swap upper recievers but you can buy a whole nother AK in another caliber for the price. AK's are available in anything from .22lr to 12 gauge.

Anybody can own and love anything they want, it just bothers me when I see bad info being passed off. For myself personally, I had the M-16A2 inflicted upon me, it was not a match made in heaven. I've used a number of civilian market AR's, no change. Now that I can use and afford anything I want I have a few rifles, none of them based on this platform. YMMV.

WTH? What state do you live in that has a law that requires you to justify every bullet you fire stopping a badguy? I'm glad I don't live there!!!

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

A standard cheap AK is a relatively innaccurate weapon at long range, but that was not what it was designed for. It has been found that most effective contacts take place at 200-300m anyway, so massive accuracy is not a major factor in most gunfights. The AK's reliability is legendary, which is a big deal in a real gunfight.

If you buy an expensive AK such as Arsenals SAM7 or similar, you will get a much more accurate gun.

The M16 and it's variants is a well designed, accurate weapon, but compare the following:


AK 47 vs M16

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Ugh. Not that video again. Neither of those shooters can shoot. The M-16 should have grouped much better. Play the video back slow and watch the trigger pull on the AK. As others have noted the shooter starts with his finger off the trigger then jerks it back hard rather than squeezing the trigger like any decent marksman knows how to do. Every AK I've shot can produce targets that look much more like that shot by the M-16. Even if you ignore the flyer that M-16 was shooting what looks like a 3moa or 4moa group.

It is very likely the AK was not even zeroed because the real world trajectory of the 7.62x39 just isn't enough at 200 yards that all the bullets would be falling below the paper. From a battle zero the drop on 200 yards is about 3 inches. Assuming that is a standard military silhouette that target is nearly 40 inches tall and 20 inches wide. That means that for a zeroed AK to be missing the paper at 200 yards it would have to be shooting 10moa or worse. The thing of it is that the shooter did manage to hit the edge of the paper, which is a 5moa shot. The guy sucks and the rifle isn't zeroed.

The reciprocating mass and barrel whipping will keep that AK from ever shooting amazing sub-moa groups but what they didn't make clear in the video is that the bullet has already left the barrel by the time any of that has started happening, which is why 2moa is possible with the AK action.

The bit about how the AK is really a machinegun because the first position on the selector is full auto is garbage. The real reason is because if you're swiping off the safety quickly under stress you don't have to stop the level halfway through its motion to get to semi auto. Instead you can just swipe till you are positively stopped in the semi auto position. It requires more finesse, not less, to use the full auto position.

The concrete and wood blocks tests were good, though. Some people do not realize there is really that much of a difference between the ability of the two cartridges.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Any AK-47 or SKS I have ever shot over the years will spank a 10 inch gong (a good torso hit) at 200 yards all day long...

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Let me beat the drum again for the SAIGA...AK reliability with 2-3 MOA in .223...goodly effective with Wolf 62 SP, Federal 63 SP, 68 or 75 HP Ultramax or Black Hills...

pictured here with Surefire mag

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I know some will disagree, but check out the keltec SU-16 line. I like the CA model, but that is partially due to the fact that my home state is NY. The .223 is fine for defense with Hollow or soft point rounds. The reason the M-16 is ineffective in combat is because the military uses FMJ rounds that just punch holes with minimal damage. Hollows may have feeding problems. 223 is also cheap to shoot and stock up on.

Concerning purchasing weapons from individuals. Is it legal to buy a handgun with out a permit in this manor? I live in NC. I thought all transfers of pistols had to involve a permit.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

You bet, if you shoot someone and go to court, you WILL be asked why you fired as many rounds as you did. BET ON IT. The point that I was at least trying to make is that with a .45 you stand a much better chance of stopping someone with fewer rounds expended than with a 9mm and would therefore have an easier time justifying it.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

http://www.classicarms.us/htm/ammunition.htm

7.62x39 - $170 per 1000 round case (one case)

.223 - $200 per 1000 round cases (two cases of AR ammo)

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of_7_62x39.html

$160 per 1000 round case

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/W...55grn_FMJ.html

$220 per 1000 round case (and it's Wolf - shudder)

http://www.kyimports.com/ammo.htm

7.62x39 - $180 per 1000 round case

.223 - $239 per 1000 round case

THOSE are my best prices on the net. I buy mine from a local guy here in Denver for a little less. But we've been doing busines a LOONG time, so he cuts me some slack.

I can post other links but the prices just climb much higher. Get it NOW while it's THIS CHEAP. It's only going to get more expensive and eventually might even disappear altogether.

And if ANYONE asks why you fired so many rounds, the standard answer is "Because I ran out"...

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Wallews right!! Price of ammo will go up more than Au/AG. Stock up now. thing is you might have to hide it well. Keeping it dry is a good thing too!!

SB

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Even if the bullet stops inside the person, it's not going to actually "knock" them down as if someone gave them a hard shove. Newton's third law still applies. When the gun being fired only pushes someone back the slightest in recoil, the bullet it fires isn't going to knock the person it hits over, not even if it jumps from 9mm to .45 in diameter. Shux, the Mythbusters covered that. :bear_tongue:

What makes folks go down is psychological on their part, or critical damage to vital areas which physically keeps them from carrying on. They don't fall because a bullet actually knocks them down from brute force.

Now a 12 gauge will send a grown man flying 10 feet... I saw it in a movie :bear_rolleyes:... at 0:43 and 4:30 in this clip. :D (If the time shows in count down, click it once and it switches to count up.)

<object width="425" height="366"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lq3zjTmVLbM&rel=1&border=0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lq3zjTmVLbM&rel=1&border=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="366"></embed></object>

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I sure am glad I don't live in your state. Or maybe you just read too much Ayoob or something? Either way the basic premise is wrong. If you want a one shot stop there is one critical factor, shot placement.

FMJ bullets from any of the service calibers will more than penetrate a human torso. HP loads from any of the service calibers will generally stop within a foot or so which is considered the proper ammount by FBI statistics. Expansion is within a few tenths of an inch of eachother. Their performance is all very similar in that regard.

Not necessarily. Knowledgeable AK users know how to change mags by knocking the empty out with the new mag and locking it in place in a fluid motion. It is extremely fast, mechanically faster than most people will ever be able to attain. Just as in AR speed drills mag retention goes out the window.



Oog could kill a man with a super pointy stick. Since Oog has killed people with super pointy sticks then they are the ultimate combat weapon? Bullets kill, even little .22lrs that are well placed. I'm sure many tough men fell to the Chauchat but you won't catch me with one.

Folding stocks are noticeably shorter than collapsing stocks. You also give up effective range with the 5.56x45 when you go with a shorter barrel. The AK is better designed as a compact weapon.

That depends, doesn't it?

Factually not true noth'n... I've been given Colts, FN's, Bushmasters... they all did it. I have friends with civillian configured AR-15's that do it. The gas system blows gasses directly into the reciever. The charging handle cuts a channel through the rear of the reciever right to where your eye is. Doesn't happen every time but oh yes, it does happen and it does hurt your target aquisition when it does.

Yeah, and they told me it was 550 against a point target, sure, if your target is a piece of paper... 800 meters against an area target. Do you have any idea what the energy level of M193 or M855 at 800 meters is? Maybe if I was shooting at an area full of inflatable Santas! The main wounding effect from these bullets in this caliber is fragmentation. If you aren't getting more than 2700fps then they will not frag reliably. You can extend that range with special bullets, but you can expand the capabilities of the 7.62x39 with special loads too. Hey, don't take my word for it!

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Wow, we went from intro weapons for a novice to advanced close combat training.


Here is some more info about grip...from a champion.


Here is a vid showing some of the performance expectations of different sized ammunition.


Homer: I'd like to buy your deadliest gun, please.
Gun Shop Owner: Aisle six, next to the sympathy cards.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Wow. Thanks for that video of Todd Jarrett. I'm going to look for some more of his stuff.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

I would like to point out to ALL the AR fans that you folks want to forget that Skirnir's original question included the Romak 3 (Romanian Dragunov PSL).

Folks, this shoots the 7.62x54R. This round is good out to 1000 meters. The scope that comes with it has it's military markings OUT TO 1000 METERS (that a little more than 1/2 a mile).

YES, IT IS an AK design.

NO, I couldn't POSSIBLY use it out to that distance, but that's because of my aging eyes, which is WHY I have not brought this up.

So, all you AR people S2 with the "AR is a longer reaching weapon than the AK design".

It's JUST NOT TRUE (unless you ONLY want to discuss the 7.62x39 in your discussion, which is short sighted AT BEST). Yeah, you CAN shoot an AR out to 600 meters. That's 400 METERS SHORTER than the 7.62x54R is capable of.

Let Skirnir decide and stop throwing bogus facts his way.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

You're absolutely correct and I didn't mean to imply that a person hit would do one of those Hollywood backflips. :D

Again, all things considered I'm sticking by my guns (specifically a .45 Colt) as a recommendation for Skirnir because of the very fact that the trauma induced is greater than that with a 9mm.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

here is an interesting picture...

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

More interesting pictures...Dr. Fackler, I believe (?)...

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Heh. I suspected that they may not have properly zeroed the AK, and that one of the guys wasn't a great marksman. He blamed the sights in the video...

The effect of the cartridges on the solid targets is indeed profound. Even hiding behind them you would not be safe against the AK.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

Yup, M67 and SP are decent loads. It looks like their SP's were American though, the Russian stuff tends to fragment as much as expand. Everything with the M43 is out of date, M43 can't even be imported anymore and costs a dollar a round or more if you can even find it. 122gr fmj has a very large air space in the tip and acts similarly to M67, maybe a little more aggressive due to being more unbalanced.

Here's a link to some jello with more current bullet designs than M43 or M67. The HP performance is about what you can expect out of 7.62x39 loaded with 8m3, such as Wolf Military Classic HP.

http://brassfetcher.com/762x39mm.html

[quote-shades2]Heh. I suspected that they may not have properly zeroed the AK, and that one of the guys wasn't a great marksman. He blamed the sights in the video...

The effect of the cartridges on the solid targets is indeed profound. Even hiding behind them you would not be safe against the AK. [/quote]

AK's do have a short sight radius and that does work against them but buckhorns are relatively fast if you're used to them. Even then the Eastern Bloc guys addressed this ages ago, like AK ergos and handling Americans just haven't caught on yet. Most modern AK's have the rail on the left of the reciever for a modern optical sight which is superior in performance to any iron sight.

It is interesting to note the Polish guy in the first video, something that you might also miss from a Western perspective is why he's dropping while he reloads. What he's doing is moving out of an area where he was a target. I'm suprised he didn't do a latteral displacement at the same time but that probably wouldn't have fit well in the frame and still been clear.

Yeah, it's hard to hide from the AK. Not much provides effective cover. Here are some interesting videos. The naration is over hyped but you can watch the results for yourself.



For most environments most people live in the 7.62x39 has a definite edge over the 5.56x45.

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

failed after 750. not bad

Re: Ship finally came in, need advice
 

This should be enough for now; I'm going to close the thread and convert into .pdf and print it at school so I have some stuff to ask about at the range soon.

Thanks again to everyone; just don't do well too far into 'information overload' range :wink: